Curiosity at Work: Chris Douglas on Learning, Leadership, and Longevity

In this episode of Womble Perspectives, Chief Recruiting Officer Lori Patton sits down with partner Chris Douglas to explore her two-decade journey at the firm. Chris shares how her passion for learning shaped her path from litigation to leadership.

About Chris Douglas

Transcript

PODCAST INTRO (00:00)

Welcome to Womble Perspectives, where we explore a wide range of topics, from the latest legal updates to industry trends to the business of law. Our team of lawyers, professionals and occasional outside guests will take you through the most pressing issues facing businesses today and provide practical and actionable advice to help you navigate the ever changing legal landscape. With a focus on innovation, collaboration and client service, we are committed to delivering exceptional value to our clients and to the communities we serve. And now our latest episode.

HOST (00:39)

Welcome to another episode of Womble Perspectives. This year marks the firm's one hundred fiftieth anniversary, and in commemoration, We're periodically sitting down with some of our attorneys whose impact in law and in their communities helped make Womble what it is today, and who are also helping carry the firm's legacy into the future. 

In this episode, our chief recruiting officer, Lori Patton, speaks with Chris Douglas, a partner whose wide-ranging career trajectory has been united by one common thread: her passion for learning.

Chris discusses what satisfies her about her work here, why she has stayed at Womble for more than twenty years, and the support she received in her journey to firm leadership

And now, on to the episode with more of the story.

LORI PATTON (1:28) 

I am excited to be here today with my colleague and dare I say friend, Chris Douglas, who I've known for more than twenty years. Chris started here at Womble just slightly more than twenty years ago and has seen quite an evolution, not only in our firm, but also in her practice. 

So, Chris, welcome today, and I'd love to hear a little bit from you, going back to those beginnings. What brought you to Womble?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (2:02)
Thanks, Lori. I appreciate the opportunity to be here, and it's a crazy story. I was living in Nashville, Tennessee, practicing law there at a small litigation boutique focused on insurance defense. 

And my husband announces, this is pre-kids, you know, so husbands can just announce this, "Oh, I got a new job. We're moving to Winston-Salem." And I said, "Great. That's where Duke is. I remember visiting Duke." And he was like, "No, that's where Wake Forest is." 

So, it was the funniest thing, and when I told the managing partner of the litigation boutique that I was moving to Winston, he said, "Well, that's great, you can't move until the end of April because we have two more cases we're trying." 

So, my husband moved in January, I moved in April, and one of his very good friends is a now retired partner of the firm, Mike Gunner. And Mike had nothing to do with litigation, but I called Mike and he said, "Yeah, come to my firm and interview." 

And I interviewed at another large firm, and loved Womble so much and knew immediately if they offered me a job, that was the one I was gonna accept, and they got back to me first with a job offer. So that's how I landed here in 1997.

LORI PATTON (3:05)
I love that. So, you were here just a few years before I arrived, and I remember meeting you at my very first partner meeting. I remember because we both were practicing litigators at that point. 

Tell me a little bit about how you initially got into litigation. Was that something that you always knew you wanted to do or just something you stumbled into?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (03:25)

Well, this is also a random story if you have not heard this. I was convinced that, well, and to this day if I win the lottery, I'll go back to school. Like, I love to learn. I'm a Gallup Strengths learner 100% over, and love just, just to learn, which explains why eventually I got to mass torts. But that's another story. 

So, I took the MCAT, the LSAT, the GMAT, and the GRE all without a prep class and said, "I'll do whatever one I did best on." And that's how I went to law school. And then immediately in law school, particularly when I got a C in tax, it became very obvious that I needed to go the litigation route.

LORI PATTON (4:04)

Right there with you. Totally get it. 

So, when you think about the trajectory of your litigation experience and then really landing, and I say that intentionally, landing in the mass torts products liability practice area, what are the things that come to mind that make that such an interesting area to feed your learner?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (04:24) 

Oh, it's every day. I mean, every time I get a new product, I learn all about the product. Like everything from how it's manufactured, where it's manufactured, who owns the patent, how did this come about, how is it used, where are the manufacturing practices over the life cycle of the product, 'cause, that changes throughout. 

And that really fuels me. I love it. I'm working with a preterm infant formula maker right now, and I know more about preterm infant formula than I ever thought I would learn, and it's fascinating. I mean, just the pure science behind some of the ways that we are able to make life-saving products for babies. I mean, fascinating to me.

LORI PATTON (05:02) 

I think it's a perfect fit for you, and I do understand with every new case, it's a whole brand new book for you to learn. 

And I know in your trajectory here at Womble, you have been in that traditional area of practicing as a partner in the products mass torts arena. You also had an opportunity to make a bit of a shift into more of a business center within the firm. Your first stop, because you've had an opportunity to grow in a couple of areas, was with our case management facility. We call it the CMF. 

Tell me a little bit about the attraction there and what that was like to learn that business side while incorporating the products piece to all of the work that you were doing.

CHRIS DOUGLAS (05:47) 

The best way to describe the work that the CMF does is, number one, it's an adjunct to the in-house team. 

So, say you have a very large corporate client, but they've never had mass volume litigation. They're not set up for that. They've got great lawyers, but they don't have infrastructure. So, where we come in is we give them what's almost impossible to do: control. 

Like if you've got hundreds of thousands of cases or even just hundreds of cases, honestly, across the nation, and you maybe have some parallel government investigations going on, you are losing control every day. You don't know, you know, who's answering discovery in the state of Nevada versus who's responding to an investigation question in Phoenix.

So, it really is putting all the data in one place, and once you get everything in one place, you have one single source of truth, so then you can run analytics. You can tell the client, "Well, your budget for the third quarter is gonna have to go up because the statute of limitations in these 17 states is gonna run out." 

So, it's a lot of business analytics. It's a lot of strategy, but I think the way that clients describe it best is, "I don't feel lost any-anymore. I feel like I have strategic control," and that's really through data.  

LORI PATTON (06:55)

So, when I hear you say that, it often surprises people to hear about, as you said, adjunct or ancillary businesses like the CMF, and we really got started with the CMF. 

Tell us a little bit more about that background of why CMF came about to begin with and how you see it as being a really important pillar of the innovation that Womble's been engaged with.

CHRIS DOUGLAS (07:22) 

So, do you remember when Al Gore invented the internet?

LORI PATTON (07:24) 

(Laughs) Yes, I do.

CHRIS DOUGLAS (07:26)

Okay. So, about that time, and this is before I got to the firm, we had a former partner of the firm – I don't think he was a general counsel at the time, but he may have been the assistant general counsel of a longtime client of the firm. And he called people here at the firm and basically what I'm told, said, and I'm paraphrasing, "We've got this internet thing. Isn't there something that we can do to get a handle on all this litigation?" And that was so forward-thinking. 

And of course, Womble, as you said, being innovative in spirit, said, "Yes, we can absolutely build something." So, it was way back when, built for one corporate client facing high volume of litigation and government investigations in tandem with that. And it focused early on, on little things like if we've answered an interrogatory one way, how can we ensure that we're consistent in all our other responses? You know, focused on little kinds of items. 

But then over time, as legal operations has come into play in our industry, it is much more focused on finding efficiencies, eliminating redundancies. You know, if you've hired an Am Law 150 to get your strategy down, do they really need to be the ones executing the strategy every day? Can't we find a lower cost to execute on the strategy? 

So things like that, helping our clients come up with, "I want still have the strategic direction that I'm getting from all of my law firms, but I want to have more control, and I wanna have some levers that I can pull when I need to adjust to the budget of the overall company."

LORI PATTON (08:54) 

So, I love the way that you describe the birth of the CMF, and I know you and I have both seen examples like this over time in various areas where a client has said, "Hey, I have this idea," and they posed it, and we took it seriously, thought about poured some water on it, gave it a little sunshine, and began this creation. 

And I know we have multiple examples of that. How has the CMF become this thing that other clients are aware of? Has it just been word of mouth? How has this become a thing that clients really seek?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (09:30) 

Yes, it is word of mouth. 

And once you work with us, and we've worked with, I would say if not every Am Law 200 firm, at least 90% of the Am Law 200, they come to us and say, "Hey, we wanna partner with you." So, a lot of our work you would think comes from lawyers in the firm. It's actually the opposite. It comes from other lawyers at other firms who just don't have the setup that we have. 

I mean, at one time we had over 100 paralegals and say 10 lawyers. Now operating at about 50 paralegals and five lawyers. We have maintained that core team for all these years. So as a result, you have people who are true specialists in this. 

We are in the process of interviewing with a financial services company for a coordinating counsel role. I mean, I think for years people just thought, "Well, those should be the same people." You know, it's an area of specialty, I mean. So now it's being recognized for that.

LORI PATTON (10:20) 

Absolutely, and I love what you said in terms of people recognizing not only how they can utilize this function to get control of something that feels gigantic, but also the client experience and the things that we've been able to offer. And we didn't stop with the CMF, and that's what I love about the innovation story. 

You have also continued to build. You have moved in recent years to be very involved in what we call our Medical and Scientific Solutions practice. But around here, I know we often just refer to it as MedSci. 

Tell me a little bit more about, again, the beginnings of MedSci. Why did it come about, and what's the real void or the thing that MedSci has been created to solve?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (11:06) 

So that also happened before I got to the firm, so I can tell you what I know, and it was born out of the same scenario. A client basically saying, "I'm being charged a whole lot for analysis of medical records. I'm being charged a whole lot for collection of medical records. I'm being charged a whole lot to find experts, then only to find out that they're not being successfully vetted. And so I get to deposition, and I'm very unimpressed with my expert's performance. What can you do to help me with this? And in particular, do you have scientists?" 

And so really that team, there's two lawyers. The rest are scientists. I mean, we have PhDs, we have nurses, we have research analysts, and they specialize in all those areas I just mentioned. 

We have a whole team that all they do is find experts, vet experts. They can go on and write your Daubert motions and all that and prep them. And we have a lawyer who's very, very good at getting somebody cross-prepped, for instance, in any kind of, you know, litigation. And so there is that team. 

Then there's the researchers. We have medical librarians. They can do any kind of research that you need. Right now, they're doing something very exciting for clients called horizon scanning, and they've been doing this for a couple years, and it's basically look at what's out there. And especially now, with AI tools, you know, you can not just look at what adverse events are being reported to the FDA, for instance. You can look at what's popping in the plaintiff's bar, what are they looking at? Could we have predicted PFAS litigation, for instance? What's the EU doing? Because it's probably coming here. Things like that.

You know, so they're helping clients get a handle on what's out there in regards to your product. They also do a lot of regulatory work, regulatory compliance. If you have an FDA-related product they can do all the scientific analysis to help you with administrative rulemaking. So they do much more than litigation. In fact, it's probably 50% litigation support and then 50% regulatory work.

LORI PATTON (13:00)

So Chris, again When I hear you describe all the things from the evolution, started with nugget of a client expressing a concern and a need, and our lawyers hearing that need and being willing to investigate, and that investigation, innovation, the willingness to take the risk, created this incredible opportunity. 

When you think about your trajectory from practicing law to being intimately involved in the CMF and its growth, then MedSci and its growth, tell me a little bit about what that transition was like for you. For example, how did it come about to begin with? From your full-time billing hours, traditional law practice, moving into these roles? And as you went through that process, did you ever see an opportunity like this coming as you thought about your professional career?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (13:54)

No, I really thought I'd be trying cases my whole life because by the time I was 35, I'd tried 50 cases and I loved it, or I thought I loved it at the time. I didn't love the fact I had to block off my calendar for the judge, you know, a year in advance. I didn't like that I couldn't plan vacations. There were things about it that I did not love. 

But when I got more into what is now called legal operations, I discovered, like, I am totally a geek. I love Lean, I love Six Sigma. If there's a process, and if we can focus on every little process and make it better, like, I have a passion for that. 

And to answer your question, did I ever think I'd be here? No, but people ask you and you're a curious person and you're like, "Well, yeah, sure, I can try that. Why not?" 

And then when you get into it and you learn that you love it and you love the people that you work with and the opportunities that it affords, you're like, "Okay, this is cool," and I'm grateful.

LORI PATTON (14:43)

So much growth and again, you know, knowing you for the twenty-plus years that I've been here while I was also going through that growth, I think it just continues to tell the story of how Womble is a growth-centered, growth mindset type of firm. And I think that's probably why you have been here and continue to be so engaged, just as I have been. It gives us so many opportunities and for the willing who raise their hands and are willing to work hard I, see so many opportunities for us, and it has definitely kept you and me on our toes. 

The other part of what you are doing is leadership and management. Of course, we all know that within a law firm, you're wearing your lawyer hat and your manager hat and your leadership hat all at the same time, trying to think about which one pulls off to put the other one on. When you think about the leadership roles with these ancillary businesses, talk to me about that leadership journey. So specifically, do you recall a time when it occurred to you, "Oh my goodness, I am a leader in our firm, and there are expectations of me to lead this group"?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (15:57)

Yes. We had a practice group leader who about the time of the Charleston merger would invite me to all of his meetings and I just thought, he wanted me to go to his meetings 'cause I'm a younger and I'm female, you know, some diversity. 

No. In reality, what he would actually do, and I, I learned, I figured out about the third meeting, somebody would ask a question and he would just turn to me and let me answer. And finally I said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "Well, I'm not gonna be here in five to 10 to 20 years. You are, so your opinion is the opinion that matters." 

And that was the day that I was like, "Oh, okay." And then I felt old.

LORI PATTON (16:32)

(Laughs). Not old, just wise. Wise and mature. 

As you think about the things that Womble did to support you in that leadership, talk a little bit about the transition of growth, learning how to be a leader in a professional services organization. How did you feel supported?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (16:51) 

Well, I, I still have my little compass that you gave me from my leadership Womble class. That helped a lot. I still read the "Harvard Business Review". Y'all got me addicted to that. I think all the Gallup Strength coaching, I'm a huge proponent of that. I think for teams and managing people, you have to know what's gonna motivate somebody else in order to get them to do what you actually want them to do. So that has helped me immensely. 

In particular, for years I supervised a person whose number one was harmony, and that's my bottom. And I had some basements. And there were some trying times, but I've always felt supported and I've also been very privileged here to have strong female leaders. I mean, Marilyn Forbes, Ada Halsey, Ellen Gregg, just to name a few. And that has been a blessing for me here because I did not just look to men to lead. 

In fact, do you remember when Betty was our chair and CEO and I think her e-entire executive committee was all female? I mean, that's amazing.

LORI PATTON (17:45)

It really is. 

And so when you think about the advice that you might offer to a young associate or even a young partner, what advice would you offer specifically as to how that individual would get an opportunity to take on significant leadership? What should they be doing? What should they be asking?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (18:05) 

I would definitely recommend paying attention. Be intentional about the leaders that you're around. I was around some leaders that I maybe didn't like all their practices, and I recognized that. And I would literally sit down and think about, "Why don't I like how he does this? And why do I like how he does this?" And so, I was pretty intentional about being around the leaders that I liked, and I was also intentional about my colleagues on my level. 

Same thing. I would try to, I wouldn't say be friends with really necessarily, because you're friendly with most people at work, but I was selective about who I did things with outside of work. Because in the future, many of those people are leaders in the firm, and I consider them my friends.

LORI PATTON (18:51) 

I love the paying attention, being selective, you know, making those careful choices. Observing and figuring out what can you borrow from someone's style and, and from the way that they handle themselves. 

When you think about all of this experience, and you have had such an incredible career here, and you are not finished, what keeps you here every day and really keeps you psychologically engaged in Womble?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (19:16)

It’s definitely the people. I mean, you probably get that from everybody you talk to, and I know that's the, you know, “Why Womble” question too. 

In fact, I just interviewed somebody about two weeks ago, and he asked me that. And I was like, "Well, it's obvious. Like, I know the people that you're talking to right now. You know, we didn't show up on a Teams meeting and we're strangers. We know each other. We care about each other.” 

I mean, I care about your kid’s experience at Baylor. We have really solid people, and the very few that have not been solid have been exited out, and I think that's unique. Because if you've got somebody with a large book of business and a firm is willing to say, "Okay, you can go someplace else because we don't like how you treat people," I'm proud of that.

LORI PATTON (19:50) 

I am too. And it's one of the things that also has been meaningful to me and helped to keep me here over so many years. 

When you think about the people perspective, and I also believe a huge stickiness for my career here has been the people, and you expressed the care investing in the relationships, having that sort of relationship stickiness does help us to feel that there's a meaningful connection and there's meaning to our work and to our interactions with each other. 

Do you look at our core values of integrity, respect for the individual, and that excellence in client service as contributing to the type of people who really connect here?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (20:36)

Oh, 100%. 

I mean, and that's what I hate about COVID, is there are so many people who are in the workplace now who either trained during COVID or were first out during COVID and the not coming to the office. 

I mean, quite honestly, you need to connect with your colleagues. And can some people fully connect remotely? Sure, some people can, but not everybody. And you're more likely gonna care and build relationships if you’re talking to them every day down the hall, across the hall.

LORI PATTON (21:03)

I agree. And I think even if people are not in person every week, I think that in-person connection, at least at the beginning, is so important to just get everything down from understanding the tone and the body language and just the demeanor of that person. 

And I really think from the things I've studied, much like you, just nerding out on the things that make people tick, there is truly a physiological component to when people meet and connect. There's almost a chemistry that happens, and so it's more important than we know. Even if it's not constantly in person, making those in-person connections really are critical.

CHRIS DOUGLAS (21:40)

 Absolutely.

LORI PATTON (21:41)

So as we finish up today's session and think about your experiences here as we celebrate a hundred and fifty years of growth and innovation, and celebrate that we're still here a hundred and fifty years later, what are some parting thoughts that you hope listeners would take away? Whether that's a listener who's a lawyer or a listener who's a client or someone who aspires to be in the legal industry?

CHRIS DOUGLAS (22:10) 

Well, I think listening. Listening is probably something that I learned very early on here. And support. Supporting each other and supporting yourself. And then taking opportunities.

And sometimes opportunities, you may not look at them as an opportunity, but they're a growth opportunity. Especially with the way that we're changing with AI. I mean, we better be doing everything we can to adapt to change, because change is a-coming at a pace that I don't think we've had. Maybe some would argue the Industrial Revolution, but this is faster.

LORI PATTON (22:41)

Right. I, I love that. The listening and taking in, maybe listening more than we speak and paying attention, back to your earlier comments with paying attention and observing leaders, paying attention and observing what's happening in the world and how can we get comfortable with it instead of being afraid or, or thinking that it's somehow going to harm us or really being overwhelmed with something like AI. How can we take that next first step to play with it, to understand, to try some things and make it just a little less intimidating? I think it's really good advice for all of us, whether you're aspiring or already in the industry. 

So, Chris, thank you for your time being with us today.

CHRIS DOUGLAS (23:24)

Thanks, Lori.

OUTRO (23:25)

Thank you for listening to Womble Perspectives. If you want to learn more about the topics discussed in this episode, please visit the show notes where you can find links to related resources mentioned today. The show notes also have more information about our attorneys who provided today's insights, including ways to reach out to them. Don't forget to subscribe via your podcast player of choice so that you never miss an episode. Thank you again for listening.