Recruiting Success Stories: Ana Maria Gutiérrez

Today’s episode is part of our Recruiting Success stories series. Lori Patton, our Chief Recruiting Officer, sits down with Ana Maria Gutiérrez, a partner in our Denver office and Head of our Environmental Law Practice. The two discuss Ana's decision to make the jump to Womble and how she approaches achieving ambitious goals at the firm.

More about WBD's Environmental Law Practice.

Transcript

PODCAST INTRO

Welcome to Womble Perspectives, where we explore a wide range of topics from the latest legal updates to industry trends, to the business of law. Our team of lawyers, professionals, and occasional outside guests will take you through the most pressing issues facing businesses today, and provide practical and actionable advice to help you navigate the ever-changing legal landscape. With a focus on innovation, collaboration, and client service, we are committed to delivering exceptional value to our clients and to the communities we serve. And now our latest episode.

EPISODE INTRO (00:39)

Welcome back to Womble Perspectives and another episode of our Recruiting Success Stories series. Lori Patton, our Chief Recruiting Officer, sits down with Ana Gutierrez, head of Womble's Environmental Practice. We hope you enjoy today's episode.

LORI PATTON (57:20)

I am here today with one of my favorite laterals, Ana Gutierrez, in our Denver office. Ana and I did the recruiting dance for about a year and a half or so. And it was wonderful to get to know you on a personal level in addition to your professional level. And there is so much there. 

So today what I'd love to do, I'd really like to start on the professional side of, of who you are, and have you share a little bit with us about your professional work from associate level as you think about the mindset as a young associate pursuing a goal. And that goal, I know at least one of them, was to make partner. And as you thought about that and the drive, tell me a little bit about that desire or that internal motivation that pushed you to want to pursue being a partner in a law firm.

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (01:59)

Thank you, Lori, and I’ll just echo Lori’s sentiments. It's always a great time when you get to have an, a morning or an afternoon with Lori. We've spent a lot of time together and she probably won't admit it, but I may be one of her longest courtships to date. So we did get to know each other, and I appreciate Lori's patience with me throughout the, the, the process. But it you know, I think it was important for both of us to get to know each other and to get to know sort of our goals and aspirations, what we could bring to the table to make sure it was the right fit, and everything would click when we did ultimately make this transition. 

To answer your question, Lori, about sort of the goals and the drive and, and why do we do what we do and why do we work so hard to do it to, to achieve when we know we have a lot of things going on personally in our lives, but we have these these goals that we want to achieve on the professional side. I, I think for me, one of the driving factors has, has been, I would say, two driving factors. One of them is the love of education and the love of learning, right? Your, you have this goal to become partner perhaps, and if you don't share that goal, that's absolutely fine too. This goal to, to achieve. And part of that for me to get there is just having this base knowledge where somebody steps up and asks you a question and you know the answer just because you've had the experience and the opportunity to do, to do the work. And so that for me was a driving factor, was just continuing to learn, develop my skill set, know more, do more, experience more. And that in and of itself developed the building block that I saw over the years, developed a path towards success, and then that success led towards sort of a goal towards partnership. So, part of it, just the base level was, I want to learn and I want to continue to learn. And this was a path to do that. I think the second piece of it for me was, and has very, it continues to be, it's about people for me. It's about folks that I'm working with. It's about making sure that folks are enjoying their time as well as while they're working hard because we all work really hard in this profession. But we want to do it in a way that fulfills us, in a way that it's meaningful, in a way that it's purposeful. 

And so in a position of partnership, it, it was something I wanted to achieve because it gave me the opportunity, one, to develop myself as a leader, but then to put those leadership skills into practice and to help develop other humans, to help give guidance to associates, to help provide paths and opportunities if somebody was interested in a particular area of law or if they wanted to pursue a pro bono project or if they were having you know, an issue figuring out how do I, how do I step through this really hard problem? I wanted to be able to help them through that because not everything we do, and most of it is not easy. 

And so, helping to guide and provide leadership I guess implement leadership, if you will, was a really driving force in, in sort of seeking, seeking partnership

LORI PATTON (05:18)

And then, Ana, when we met, you were a partner in another AmLaw 100 firm. As you think about that partnership mindset, and, and as you got to know Womble and got to know the personalities, as you said, those relationships were really important to you, and I remember that from the beginning, the people you wanted to meet, the people we wanted you to meet, because we knew what your practice entailed, we knew what you needed around you to be successful. And we knew that because you shared that. You helped us to understand very methodically what your practice needed. As you think back on that change two years ago, tell me a little bit about what you were looking for, and then now that you've been here, tell me about how that transition has gone for you.

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (06:05)

So, I'll, I'll step back just a bit from that question to I was at a place in my career where I knew I needed to find a new platform. And that's not a negative thing, it's just a transition thing, right? It's a needed new energy. I wanted to be around people that had this vision for growth, this vision for opportunity, where are there new areas of law in the energy, environmental, natural resources sector that we can go after and build a team around it, and sort of build an empire, is kind of how I talk about it. 

And I think I was really looking for a platform that carried that same vision, that same determination, that same optimism, that same inspiration for growth, and then just to go and get it. And so, that was something that I think you and I talked about a lot, is, look, I don't want to just port a practice over here and keep doing the thing I'm doing. I want to port the practice over here and do more. And so, it was the "and do more" that I think was really important for us in our conversations when we were discussing a lateral move. What does the "and more" look like? How do we implement the "and more"? Who's going to participate in the "and more"? And those were conversations that, for me, landed really, really well. 

I think I saw really off the bat and immediately those opportunities for application of resources to go and pursue new clients, focus on industry sectors and specific groups so that we could not just silo sort of the environment practice that I had, but recognize, hey, those folks that we're working with in the energy sector, they might have an environmental question, an M&A question, an IP question. Let's holistically offer this client a platform where we we can really be that full-service law firm and not just say we are that full-service law firm. 

I think one really core element that every firm you interview with, and you’ve got to appreciate that they say it, but every firm interview with will say, "We have a collaborative environment." Right? Really getting into, I would like to see examples of that. Can you describe that for me? I'd like to talk to partners who have had that experience. Those were the types of conversations we had both in our interview process and subsequently, and again, as I mentioned, it landed well. Right? 

Folks described opportunities where they brought in a client, and then they were able to bring in another partner from another office or another region to do some of that work to help assist that client. And everybody was so collaborative and so familial, and that was really really impactful to me making the move, and it has been on the ground an incredibly valuable resource, both for clients that have come over, but also just in terms of practicing. It makes it so much more enjoyable.

LORI PATTON (09:16)

You huge leap of faith, because you were not only going to shift your practice as a lateral to a different firm, but you were opening, you and Scot Anderson together have such a lovely partnership, both personally and professionally. And you all were going to open this new Denver office. And that was a lot more than a traditional lateral experience. As you think about that, again, take us back. There were some concerns, of course, and then where are we today? Knowing that we've added a little spice in the mix because of the combination with Lewis Roca that officially came into being in January. 

So, tell us, talk us through that story of starting this adventure, and then the adventure morphed.

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (10:04)

Yeah, so I think the adventure of even just transitioning from my old law firm to a new law firm is its own adventure, right? And then the adventure of opening an office is an entirely separate adventure. And those came together, and that was extremely intimidating, right? If I'm just being completely honest with folks. To be the one of the founding partners of a new office was absolutely a leap of faith, but you can be very sure it was a calculated one. 

And one, as again expressed in our 18 months of courtship, we thought about, we talked about, we you know, had a beer over, and we figured it out. And I think it was equal parts vision and risk and conviction, right? Figuring out what it is that we want to do, what are the risks we're willing to take, and how badly do we want it? And all of that came together really nicely. 

Before getting to sort of that opportunity to open an office with Womble, at our prior law firm, as I mentioned I was really just looking for a new platform, right, to energize the practice, to grow the practice, to build a team. And I had had a conversation with Scot, sort of softly, you know when you talk to your partners and you don't say things outright, but there's enough in between the lines that you pick you pick up on that. 

And so then when we went and had a beer, and it turned out that Scot was also considering his options on the market and what this might look like if he moved. And so, it wasn't until we sat down and had that conversation that we decided you know what? Our practices extremely synergistic, we have a unified vision, and we get along incredibly well. This seems like a pretty easy you know, combination of Scot and I to go out into the market together. 

So, that's then what we did as our first step, and we frankly took a walk around Denver. Right? There's a lot of high-caliber practices, we knew a lot of folks in the community, and we had conversations with all of them, and they were all good conversations and I have positive things to to say about each of them. I think what was most exciting when we came to this conversation with Womble was this opportunity to open the new office and start something new, right? That was something that no other law firm in Denver could offer us, and while it was the absolute scariest thing about the opportunity, it was also the best thing about the opportunity because that vision that we had, right, which goes to your answer of hopes, right? That vision that we had started with we, we wanted to make energy and natural resources and mining sort of the cornerstone of an office. 

We had always been an extremely strong practice, but it had often been shadowed by other practices and so we weren't, weren't inherently or naturally given some of the resources and opportunities to continue to grow. So, we wanted to make that the cornerstone of the office and we wanted to do that in a way where we started, and you'll hear this theme a lot, we started with the people because to us it matters who comes together. Let's bring really smart lawyers, people that we really like to hang out with that will do good work together, and if you have that just really simple base, you're going to have fantastic client relationships and you're going to bring the work in. 

So, that was sort of our base vision. Obviously, a client-focused culture is at the core of that because at the end of, the day, it's a business and we have to bring money in and, and pay the bills. But if you start with the people and you simplify it, because that is your most important and your strongest asset, you will find success thereafter. So, that was sort of our, our vision going in. 

Our concerns, I mean, we had, we had plenty, right? How where are we going to go? where, where do we sit our tushes and sit down and do our work? That was something that was still up in the air as this transition was happening. Will the clients come with us? Will Womble be able to maintain sort of the services behind us that help us to continue to perform at the highest caliber? How long will we hit our stride, right? Is there going to be a, a low swing until we get our stride? Will we hit our stride? Will we draw this, this dream team that we have envisioned? Will they come, right? Those were all huge, huge questions that we had to debate and discuss and, you know, it comes down to that last element of, of why we did this, is just the, the conviction. We ultimately had to bet on ourselves and we did bet on ourselves and it, and it has worked out, I think tenfold. 

I think it was absolutely a leap of faith and I would, I would do it again. You ask me today, you ask me tomorrow, I would absolutely do it again. I think as you mentioned, we've had sort of a, a revision of the vision as we've moved through the, the merger, and that's been, it's been a fun opportunity, right? 

Because you make a plan, let's, as ladies we can say this, you, you have this birth plan, right? You write this thing down. The moment that thing starts, it's out the window. So, we had that same experience, right? We had a plan, locked, loaded, ready to go and we were implementing it and, and successfully so, right? I think we had brought it, we had by the January of 2025 when we merged, we had 11 attorneys in the Womble Denver office prior to merging with Lewis Roca, and it was a, it was a strong 11, and I think it's only been, only been a positive to have the merger. 

Because when we had this birth vision of let's make environment, energy, natural resources the cornerstone, you we wanted to be sure that it was a full service law firm and we wanted to build out to get there. What was fantastic about this Lewis Roca merger is we just got there so much faster, right? Because we now are backed by a host of litigators. We have M&A, we have employment, and we have folded those folks into our clients, into matters, just nearly overnight. And frankly, you, we had to figure out creative arrangements to work with them before the official merger, right? Financial merger. So I think it's only been a benefit. 

Generally, you have to be relatively flexible and fluid in your life or you'll be, continue to be, you know, frustrated or disappointed. And I think this has really it really has been an opportunity for continued growth on an expedited timeline and with really talented attorneys.

LORI PATTON(17:11)

Well, I know that we have been thrilled to be on the sidelines watching seeing the growth, not only as you mentioned when you and Scot initially executed on your vision, but also to see how people have come together in Denver and, and just literally see the merging of the cultures and the leadership and the growth. 

So as we think about that growth, it makes me think about some of the really awesome things you've been achieving in your career. And one specifically is a case that was a, I think 2024 case before the US Supreme Court. I remember there were some interviews happening at the time, and I remember you mentioning, "You know, I'm not sure I can make that because I've got to be in DC for an argument with the Supreme Court." And I remember pausing and thinking, "Oh." The Supreme Court. It's in DC. The. 

Tell us a little bit about what that experience was like for you, and even the, the impact on your client. How did they feel about having you arguing before the US Supreme Court.

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (18:19)

Yep. So, I'll step back. This matter was ongoings before even the transition to Womble. So, for those laterals who are thinking about, "I have a massive project on my plate. I don't know if I can move through a transition while also maintaining such an important, important matter for such a high valued client," I'm here to tell you, you can do it. And I did it, and it, it was seamless, and the transition went well. And frankly, the client was really, really pleased with how we were able to transition the work. It stayed with me. We continued to work with some of the folks, in particular Kate Stetson, the appellate team over at Hogan Lovells. So, it was synergistic and like I said, seamless for the client. 

So, all that is to say there's never a right time to make a move, right? It's you just got to do it, and you got to make sure you obviously have the resources in place, folks supporting you, know what's coming, and all of that was there with Womble. And they were very thoughtful in, "We know this matter is coming over. We know this is an important matter. It's going before the highest court in the nation. How do we support Ana and her team?" And that it was just implemented effectively. So, want to start by saying that. 

The, in terms of the matter itself, it is going. So, I didn't personally argue before the United States Supreme Court, as as a point of clarification. Kate Stetson argued the case. We prepped her as subject matter experts, got her ready, you know, did all of the questioning. this was such a fantastic matter to be a part of, and I say that from, like, the core of my true nerd inside of me ... because we were ... I, admittedly so. Never been cool, always a But it's one of those matters where you get to think practically, strategically, philosophically, politically, right? There's a whole host. Obviously, legally. And there's in this one, because it was dealing with Clean Air Act and nox emissions, you're also dealing with some science in there too. Right? So, it's just the host of these really complicated technical questions, and we would have these moots and these round table discussions with some of the smartest brains in the world, and we're sitting around the table prepping, obviously, for oral argument. 

And you would... I would just lose myself in those discussions, right? Because you're just diving full in, understanding, you know, somebody has this perspective, you think about it, you respond, there's a retort, there's a rebuttal. It's just... It was such a, a lively process. I learned a lot. It was very, very invigorating in a really positive way, and I'm really grateful for the opportunity. 

When we went before the Supreme Court, so we went, obviously, it was, It's a, I don't know what is the right word, but when you enter that room, and that room where you've seen and heard and read so many decisions that have come from that podium, it just, there's something that gives you awe or pause. It's a, it's a really regal room, right? You have these big, red velvet curtains behind the justices. There's the gold painting and the angels on the ceiling. It gives you a moment of reflection to say, "You know what? I'm good at my job, and we are making a difference and we're, you know, giving our client, we're advocating on our client in a really informed and educated and prepared way," and you feel good about that moment, and you're proud of it. You're proud of the work that you put in and obviously couldn't have done it with without the team behind me. And absolutely want to make sure I make mention of Michael Miller, who worked extremely hard, and he came over in the transition with me. So. 

But it was great. It was a great experience and super fun. and I think, I know you're not asking this question, but I think part of the reason you get matters like that and clients trust you and you become sort of their trusted advisor is you have fun with it. It's a really important matter, and you should... everybody took it very seriously. But you got to enjoy it too. If you can enjoy it and, and really dive in and fully give yourself over to the questions you're thinking through and why it matters, it's such a, I don't know, a fulfilling experience.

LORI PATTON (23:16)

It makes the work more meaningful I think. All of us are seeking, either inadvertently or, or very consciously seeking meaningful work. So I think I hear all of that in terms how meaningful that experience was, but also the meaning you put into what you do. And so, as you think about your clients and the ways in which being at Womble has served those clients. What are some examples of ways in which the Womble talent pool, the Womble culture, the, the Womble resources have supported your clients to both bring over existing clients, because we wanted you to keep your clients, that's the goal, and to build so that you are utilizing and growing that client relationship, or maybe growing new client relationships? 

Tell us a little bit about what you've experienced here.

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (24:15)

I think in the space of client development that was probably one of my biggest fears in making the transition: Will they come, right? And I'm really pleased to share with everybody that they did. Every single client matter I originated at my prior firm came over to Womble with me, and it was, It really touched me to... as I was going through this process to... both to have that result, but to feel the support of, of my clients as I moved through the transition. Everybody was in with me, right? So, that was really positive. 

I would like to say that it was personally me, the reason that they came over. But it's likely probably the number one reason, and the reason that I came, right, from a business and financial perspective, is Womble is able to offer far more flexibility in a rate structure that can match the project and match the matter and what you're offering the client. And that was the absolute number one driver for me making the move, because I knew what our team had. I knew what it was. We just weren't at the right platform to grow it, and Womble gave us that opportunity, and I've seen that unfold tenfold. 

When we came over you know, I had a certain book with me. They were at rates that were much higher, came to Womble, more leveled, reasonable market rates, and just existing client work immediately grew because clients said, "Oh, I like that price tag. Let's go again." Right? And so that was just an immediate benefit to be able to access for the clients. 

I would say the second-biggest benefit is because you now have this rate structure, this business platform that allows you to bring in more work, it then allows you to build a larger team. So, since coming over to Womble, we've added, I think three or four associates and/or counsel just to the Denver office, so that's not inclusive of access to preexisting Womble associates and attorneys, and that has been incredibly important for clients as well, because you can do the work, and then now we can do it more efficiently at lower rates and with you know, the team that has the expertise. I was able to bring somebody in from EPA as counsel, so we now have somebody who has access, right, to the agencies? And those types of soft of creative solutions and deep bench of expertise that Womble was willing to... Womble was really willing to get creative with me on, right? 

Like, "How do we build this empire? We have this vision. Let's execute. What does it look like?" And being able to do that effectively and efficiently. I mean, I've only been here for two years, and we've built this team up, and it's been really fun and really exciting. I would say the other pieces are... that have been really beneficial to my clients are... When you have this platform that has this more flexible rate structure, it is so much easier to offer the full service law firm, right? 

At places where you have a rate structure that's much higher, it's really hard to say, "We're already struggling to figure out, you know, the right rate structure for us and then pitch new work also at an extremely high rate structure." Here, where folks are already excited about the work you're doing and at the price it's coming in at, when I go and say, "Hey, I've got someone with employment that can absolutely help you with that question," they're in, right? They're absolutely in, and so you already have sort of gained traction to continue to build those client relationships.

LORI PATTON (28:20)
I love that. Thank you for, for shifting us back and getting us, giving us that whole answer.

I want to shift a little bit because we talked a little bit at the beginning of the interview about the various things that really drive your passion in the law and your passion as a professional, and, and you mentioned not only your love of learning, you also used the word lead in a number of places in that, in that response. 

And so, you clearly are a leader, and here at Womble, you have had some leadership opportunities already. You are also the co-lead of our environmental practice here at the firm. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that experience for you joining Womble. You're a new lateral here, and yet, there are leadership opportunities. How did those come about? And your... Tell me a little more about your experience in the various leadership opportunities in terms of what that's meant to your growth professionally?

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (29:25)

Yeah, it's a great question, and one that was on my mind when thinking about a transition and even before, you know, before it was solidly Womble, right? And it was a conversation I think you and I had during that courtship, I will call it, but I, but I think it so let's start here. Leadership opportunities and the desire for leadership is not for everybody. So if anybody's going through this thought process and saying, "Well, I don't necessarily want that," that's fine too. 

It was just something that for me, maybe leadership comes from a place of there's a lot of people in this world that did a lot for me, especially in the practice of law, to help me advance, and I want to be able to give that back. And it feels like the leadership platform is the right platform to do that, so that was sort of another driving factor. But I found that it was a really important question to ask and the answer was even more revealing in talking to various law firms, whether there are leadership opportunities for laterals, and maybe I put too much weight on it, but part of it for me was, if there are meaningful leadership roles that are shared and expressed and described and, you know, some concreteness around it, it sends a really powerful signal to the lateral candidate. 

It says, "Hey, your experience is valued. Your voice matters. I want to spend time with you. You're not just here to fill a gap. We want you to really fold into the fabric of what we have going, and we want your insights and your input." And I think that that's, to me even if you don't want a leadership opportunity, you should ask about them, because to me, it, it just tells you is the firm willing to invest in you as much as you are willing to invest in them? And so so I would, I would say going into Womble, we had these conversations. I don't think anybody made any commitments as to, you know, "You will have X leadership opportunity." We just talked about here's, here's opportunities and here's what they look like and here's examples of how people have advanced through them. 

And that gave me confidence that, that it was that those are really viable opportunities. I think the other piece, regardless of a title of leadership, I recognized really quickly in conversations with Womble and in coming over, that it was a place where people asked your opinion, and the second half of this matters, and they cared to hear what you had to say right? Because you get, at various places, your opinion is asked of you because it should be asked of you, and that box needs to be checked, but the more important point is, did they care to hear what you had to say? And here, regardless of leadership, absolutely is the answer, and that was huge for me.

LORI PATTON (32:20)
Tell me a little bit about that experience once you got here, and you began thinking about or seeking, if you, if you sought it out actively. Tell us a little bit about the, the experience to come into a new firm and actually achieve, not only the, the co-lead role for the environmental practice, but you've also been involved in a, version of our Leadership Womble program which is near and dear to my heart, having been involved in it from the beginning many years ago. How did that literally happen for you here at Womble?

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (32:53)

Yep, that happened a lot quicker than I thought it would happen at Womble, and it wasn't something I sought out. So sort of playing off of what I, what I ended the last answer with is, I came in very focused on client work. All the client work came. We hit the ground running. There was no break. There was no pause. 

I had these visions of doing, like, a roadshow to all the offices, like I was going to have the time to do that. And none of that happened, which is a positive thing because the work was flowing. 

But I, but I was participating in the types of activities you suggest, right? The equity partner meetings, the, the leadership Womble program, which is now Ascend, and a couple of other opportunities that allowed me to interact with, engage with our existing leadership at Womble, and that was the moment where people would ask me my opinion, and it shocked me that they cared to hear the answer. 

And I think those engagements and dialogues allowed folks to understand my value and what I have to offer and sort of what I can contribute when given the opportunity. So, I think it was, what, I came over in September, we're nearly at two years, and November, December maybe, I got a phone call that said, "Hey, we'd like you to be the, the, the lead of the environment practice group." 

And that conversation just kind of rolled from there, asked questions of what that looks like, who's on the team, how do we do this? And it was exciting, right? It was not anything I had expected, but it was also an immediate show of what we had talked about during recruiting, right? The, there are opportunities, obviously you have to demonstrate your skillset in doing so, but they will be recognized. People will see you, and I think that that played itself out pretty quickly for me, and that was, again, it was, it's a, it was it was good to feel valued in that moment and in that way. 

And I think the benefit of being the lead of the environment team is, there's several of them, I think there's that immediate that immediate benefit of getting to engage in those strategic decisions with the firm, right? Because if you want to be in a leadership role at the firm, that's ultimately what it comes down to, is you're helping to guide this path and this vision and you're contributing. And so, that was that I have found really enjoyable to sort of have a seat at the table, understand what are some of the things we're working through, how do we move through them? Learning a lot through the process, right, because obviously haven't, haven't done that before. 

But then it also gives you that platform to do that thing that I was so excited about, which is, there's a group of people here, and each of these individuals have goals and ideas and aspirations, and how do I help them get there too? So, that has been really fun to sort of sit down with folks at all vintages and figure out, you know, "What are your goals? How can I help get you there? Oh, you have this connection? Let's put you in touch with this person." And sort of help facilitate their, their sort of path and help move them through as well, and that, that's been really rewarding, I would say.

LORI PATTON (36:20)

So, what I'm hearing is that you came in really talking about a desire for leadership. People listened, and then you, you found that once you were here Womble's culture was such, and the leadership was such that they heard you and they said, "Hey, here's an opportunity. We wanna know if you're interested." So, I think that's such a great message for laterals to hear in terms of our culture. Everyone has culture, but what is the culture? And, and that is helpful in terms of seeing, hey, speak out what you want, what you're looking for. And there's an opportunity here to not only be heard, but for action to be taken so that you can pursue that. When you think about the things that you have learned already in the, in the two years here at Womble, and in the roughly year and a half that you've been engaged in the Ascend program, and also in this team leadership role, how do you think that benefits your clients? Do you see a connection there?

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (37:13)

Yeah, I think there's... think there's a big connection there, and there's a big benefit to the clients. I think for, from a basic perspective, it is you're you're helping to develop the strategy of the firm, and that firm is ultimately what is the service being delivered to the client. And so, that right there, it may be a slightly more indirect influence and benefit to your client, but that is an absolute benefit to the client. Like, where are we gonna invest resources? Are we going to develop this industry focus? How are we gonna structure teams? Are we gonna develop these new innovative, or invest in new innovative technologies? Is it beneficial to clients, right? 

So, kind of indirect, but ultimately at the end of the day, those are the platforms that we offer to our clients, so being part of that discussion is, I think impactful. I think also being in a leadership role, it helps you, it helps you stay ahead of emerging trends, which is not something I realized that it would have that much play in that sort of staying ahead of the game. But emerging trends and regulatory developments, right? So, when you are the lead of a practice, all of that information floods up to you. 

Somebody will say, "Hey, heard of this. This may be of interest." Right? And that all comes up to you, and that helps you stay aware, and just that bit of awareness when you step into your next conversation with the client who's asking, "Hey, what do you think about XYZ?" Boom, you have a, an immediate at least acknowledgment, recognition of the concept that they're thinking about, and you can move through that conversation fluidly and help connect them internal to the firm. So, it's access to knowledge and awareness of what your entire team is doing, which you can then tell your clients, "Yeah, we have the person for you," versus you having a conversation, they ask something and you say, "Well, I don't know. Let me take it back." 

And then you go and take it back, but by that time maybe they found somebody else, right? So, it's just again, tip of your tongue type knowledge. And then I think the last piece is internal network that is created by being on a in a leadership role. I interact with folks that I probably wouldn't across offices, across practice groups, and again, that helps this cross-selling and collaboration that I think is so important to all of us to make sure...... oh, hey, I know, you know, Joel does this real estate piece and you have this client that has this question. Let's connect you, right? 

So, it helps with client service in that way to make sure you give them the full resources that are available to them.

LORI PATTON (40:08)

Oh, that is, that's a great explanation, and I think that creates such a visual of how important leadership involvement can be, not just to your firm but also the way it can impact your clients positively. So with all of this that you do all day long in your professional life I know we don't have a clean break when we are professionals and we don't turn off a switch and then become personal friends, wives, mothers, daughters. It's all really pretty enmeshed at times. So you've got to do something to take care of yourself and to fuel your passion and your drive. Tell us a little bit about what you do in that off time when you get it and how do you make sure that you get that refueling time? What are the hobbies or the things that you may do to relax?

ANA GUTIÉRREZ (41:03)

So, I think refueling time stresses a lot of people out because they think they're not doing enough of it or they're not doing it right or it's not the thing that they always used to do and so the way that I've sort of taken a breath on all that is it's going to look different at different stages of your life. 

So right now, I have two young kids at home and my husband, so free time is really limited. Extremely, extremely so with a six and an eight year old. But that's okay. And like maybe the hour that I go to the gym is probably legitimately my free time and that's maybe my release is that bit of fitness that I try and stay focused on, but in terms of sort of unplugging, for me my number one commitment is to my family. And clients are important, but my family is always going to come first . And I prioritize that, right? So, I try to make it to as many soccer games as I can and gymnastics meets and all that fun stuff, and I'm there and I attempt to do my very best to be present in that moment, and then when I need to step into work, you've got me 100% at work, right? 

That's not always perfect. It is very imperfect, but it is it's a way to sort of fluidly move through to just give yourself some grace to have this moment of right now I'm, you know, engaging in conversation and thinking critically about this issue. In about 15 minutes, I'm going to go make a peanut butter and jelly, right? 

Like, so you, you have to transition pretty quickly and kind of just moving fluidly through that, but again giving yourself some, I think I already used the word, but grace to know that it's not perfect and you will have more time at a different place in your life. 

So while this all feels extremely busy, I am guessing in 20 years I'll be missing the moment where I'm not hustling from practice to practice to meeting to meeting, and so right now I'm just... I'm going to enjoy it all and take it all in.

LORI PATTON (43:17)
  I love that visual of it morphing, this concept of refilling your bucket and refueling passion or, quote, "free time." I've always disliked the visual of balance because I think when people use that word, they think about a, or I guess I think about a seesaw and keeping it balanced. And when we think about life, if you've lived any amount of adult life, you realize that there's rarely ever this thing called balance. It is truly what does the day require of you? And that's how I look at it. 

Some days require all work, and so it may not be really viable to have as much time for family or the gym. But then looking at the next day and saying, "Well, what does this day require?" Maybe in this day, I can shift and have more of that time to move my body or, you know, be with my children or feed my soul. 

So, I love that concept of the fluid relaxing or fluid feeding and taking care of of yourself, because that that's the realistic, practical way in which we all live. And when we ramp it up to be a professional, that really does require something different. 

Being a professional, as I mentioned earlier, means that you don't have this automatic on-off switch. You might have to compartmentalize, which I find myself doing more and more these days, just to force the boundary to be able to refill personally. But that professional level does mean that we're somewhat available and on an awful lot of the time over the course of seven days. So that can be really challenging. But enough about me and my my pondering on what the day brings. I'm so glad that we got a chance to connect and hear all of the different aspects from personal to professional. And it's helped me learn even more about you and your leadership. So thank you for spending some time with us. Thanks,

PODCAST OUTRO (45:29)
Thank you for listening to Womble Perspectives. If you want to learn more about the topics discussed in this episode, please visit the show notes where you can find links to related resources mentioned today. The show notes also have more information about our attorneys who provided today's insights, including ways to reach out to them. Don't forget to subscribe via your podcast player of choice so that you never miss an episode. Thank you again for listening.