A Point of View Like No Other: Jamie Chou

As a firm, we believe our team members' unique perspectives allow us to deliver more integrated solutions, fresh perspectives, and quality advice. Each Saturday throughout the month, we're broadcasting interviews with some of our attorneys featuring stories about their careers and told in their own words, illustrating just how our firm offers a point of view like no other. 

Today, we're speaking with Jamie Chou out of our San Francisco office.

Learn more about Jamie.

Transcript

Welcome to Womble Perspectives, where we explore a wide range of topics, from the latest legal updates to industry trends to the business of law. Our team of lawyers, professionals and occasional outside guests will take you through the most pressing issues facing businesses today and provide practical and actionable advice to help you navigate the ever-changing legal landscape. 

With a focus on innovation, collaboration, and client service. We are committed to delivering exceptional value to our clients and to the communities we serve. And now our latest episode. 

HOST

Welcome to the final episode in our twenty twenty four February Saturday series. As a firm, we believe our team members' unique perspectives allow us to deliver more integrated solutions, fresh perspectives, and quality advice. Each Saturday throughout the month, we're broadcasting interviews with some of our attorneys featuring stories about their careers and told in their own words, illustrating just how our firm offers a point of view like no other. 

Today, we're speaking with Jamie Chou out of our San Francisco office. Hi, Jamie. And thanks so much for joining us on our podcast. 

Well, the question we always start with is sort of a broad question about your path. When did you decide you wanted to go to law school and become a lawyer? 

JAMIE CHOU

Well, so people always laugh when I tell them this, but I actually decided in 6th grade that I was going to be a lawyer and go to law school and I never deviated from that afterwards. I remember even in college freshman orientation, they say a lot of people change their majors or decide different career paths and the average college student changes their major something like two or three times and that never happened. I decided in 6th grade. 

My elementary school had a mock trial program that they did and my 6th grade teacher tapped me to see if I wanted to be on the mock trial team. And I really, at that point in my life, had no idea what it meant to be a lawyer or what a mock trial entails. There were no lawyers in my family, so no one for me to talk to. 

So I was assigned one of the attorney roles. And, as part of the mock trial program, you're given a fact pattern, and you actually try this case, and you have witnesses, you've got the other students who act as jury members. And after that process, I had a really great time doing it. I was like, oh, this is actually kind of fun. I think I would enjoy doing this for a living. 

And it kind of plays into a little bit the whole Asian stereotype you may have heard about, which is for Asian parents, and especially my parents - at the time, the only acceptable careers were doctor, lawyer, engineer. So I didn't want to be a doctor. I knew that I didn't like blood and hospitals and sick people, and I liked math and sciences, but I wasn't really crazy about it. I couldn't really see myself being engineer, and when I stumbled upon mock trial and being a lawyer, it's like, oh, this is actually really fun. I think I could do this, and I continued with mock trial in middle school and high school. 

So I did it and then was captain of the mock trial trial team and would go and train be a trainer at the elementary and middle schools once I was in high school and really enjoyed that. And I really thought that actually I was going to be a trial lawyer with a mock trial experience and be a litigator, which is actually how I started my career, was actually in litigation. But I've since transitioned to being a transactional attorney. 

HOST

That's great and so interesting that you knew since sixth grade. Before your firm, Cooper White and Cooper combined with us, you were part of the team that brought these two firms together. Can you tell us a little bit about that process? What were you looking for before the combination, and what made you and your colleagues at CWC decide that Womble was a good fit? 

JAMIE CHOU

I mean, I think other people have heard this from me, but when we were first approached with possibility of combining with Womble, I think most of us who were at CWC were pretty reticent to even really take a meeting or consider it, because we were just thinking that an AMLaw 100 firm was not going to be compatible in terms of the business and also the culture of what we had as CWC being a smaller, much more regional firm. That kind of all the things you hear about AMLaw 100 firms that kind of negatively predisposed us against thinking about joining an AMLaw 100 firm. 

I think a number of us were very leery about that prospect, and we were really thinking and had contemplated offers from other firms that we thought would be a better match in terms of who we were as a firm. And obviously, we were very pleasantly surprised after meeting with Womble, and starting with Betty and Hails, I believe, and kind of grew to larger and larger groups. And we were surprised at, given the size of Womble, how much it really mimicked and echoed the values and the culture that we had at CWC, and that despite its size, it still felt very much like a much smaller family in a lot of ways. People really seemed to know each other, work together, the collegiality that was there, and just the flexibility as well, that we were being given to kind of continue to operate much like we had but while joining a larger firm with a greater geographic reach and obviously more potential practice areas and legal expertise that we would be able to offer. 

I mean, I think it really convinced us that joining Womble would be a great accretive proposition for us and that it was going to present for us so many pros for our clientele that a number of whom we serve, kind of mid sized companies where we serve as their outside general counsel, but had not been doing the work that they have, for instance, in the Carolinas, where they also had operations where now we would be able to service that. And just additional practice areas and even international assistance with the UK offices are available also. It really just seemed like it was going to be a great fit. 

And 15 months in, I would say that. I think all of us would say that the transition has gone, has been great and that it's been actually gone better than we would have expected. 

HOST

That's great. That's so good to hear. You mentioned the collegiality you had at CWC and that you had similar experiences at Womble. Why is that so important for a law firm's culture? And is that part of the reason you spent your entire career at CWC before the combination? 

JAMIE CHOU

It is. I mean, definitely that. And just having access to great mentors, great lawyers that I was really able to learn from and that really trained and grew me from being a baby lawyer who really knew nothing as a first year associate coming in to where I am now, not just being kind of. Of a name and a statistic in a huge firm where there's 1000 other associates. And who are you within that universe? You know, the politicking that has to go on. 

I would say there just, you know, wasn't that kind of impersonality, you know, to being in a smaller firm and just, you know, being able to really get to know the other lawyers, working very collaboratively with them. And I think being in a smaller firm, I was able to be given just a lot more responsibility and latitude at an earlier part of my career than I might have been given at a larger firm. And I really enjoyed that. Just the training that I was given. 

And I could have my handheld when I needed to. I could walk down the hall and step into a partner's office and be honest with them that I needed help on something, and they would be there to help guide me and say, okay, for this, this is how you want to structure it, or here the issues that you need to pay attention to. But where I felt like where I wanted additional responsibility and independence, there were huge opportunities for me to kind of spread my wings as much as I wanted to. 

So that was really great and I really enjoyed the people that I work with. I mean some of my best friends today are the people that I work with at CWC and even though some of them have left because they've moved out of state or they decided to go in house or in a government or what have you, they're still some of my closest friends. And it was funny because within the CWC group of lawyers I'm one of the shorter tenured attorneys. Some of the other lawyers have been there 30, 40, 50 plus years. It's funny because Jeff Wu and Quin Tom - Jeff has been with the firm I think for twelve or 13, and he's kind of one of the babies, having only been at the firm for twelve or 13 years. I mean, he's not a baby, but in terms of firm tenure, it's kind of funny. 

And Womble seems to have a lot of that. I mean, there's a lot of people, staff attorneys who have been with the firm for forever. And our staff at CWC, pretty much usually the only time we were hiring new staff was when existing ones were retiring. So, we have many staff members who've been with us 20, 30, 40 years. 

HOST

One thing it seems people always mention about you is that whatever you're doing, both as a lawyer and in general, you have a real knack for bringing people together and getting people to work toward a common goal. Is that something you learned growing up? Can you tell us a little bit about where that skill comes from? 

JAMIE CHOU

I don't know that it really was part of my childhood. I didn't really have business or legal exposure for the most part, growing up. I think a little bit of that probably comes into play. With respect to one of the questions you had about my pageant background was kind of, in that context, having to work with different people who had maybe different ideas, and having to not necessarily mediate disputes, but just kind of working with different people from all walks of life and having to meet even strangers or on a regular basis and working with them whether it was on an event or deciding how to orchestrate or execute something and working with a team environment in that context. 

And then certainly as a lawyer I think a lot of my training at CWC you know and even in litigation when you're litigating people really do. Litigation is very much a zero sum game in many respects but at the same time to be an effective litigator most cases do end up settling. They don't go to trial is you really have to be able to sit down and look at both sides of the picture, right and figure out what are the other side's arguments, do they have merit?

And either convincing the other side that you know your arguments have merit or, you know being able to sit down with your client and saying look I understand here, you know, here are arguments and here's where you're coming from but being able to explain to them why the other side's arguments potentially have merit even if your client doesn't want to hear that right. As a good lawyer you really do have to be able to look at the whole picture and kind of identify what are your weaknesses and strengths and how are you going to bolster the weaknesses or emphasize the strengths or diminish the weaknesses or how do you plan around on the weaknesses and I think doing that in litigation whether you're going to mediation settlement or what have you or even convincing a judge. 

A lot of it is about bringing people around to your viewpoint or being open minded enough to basically embrace something of what the other side is saying so that you can meet a common ground. The most effective attorneys are people who can really look at the entire picture, look at things from all perspectives, and really try and find a commonality. You know, I see what all our differences are, but what are the things that we have in common, and how do you bring it to that commonality to make the two sides come together, rather than staying firmly entrenched in their positions and refusing to budge? 

HOST

Yeah. That's a skill that applies to any area of the law. 

JAMIE CHOU

It applies to life too right? Even in family. Families don't always agree. And then you kind of have to figure out how you're going to work through an issue and make sure that people don't kill each other, even if you're not happy with what somebody else is saying. 

And I probably have to do that with my daughter on a more routine basis than anyone else. I have a 14 year old, and I think she thinks she knows everything in the world. I'm always reminded of this Mark Twain quote that I love, which is, when I was 19, I thought my father was the dumbest man in the world. And by the time I reached age 21, I was amazed at how much he had learned in two short years. 

HOST

Expanding a bit beyond your practice, you mentioned your family. I'm sure they're very proud of your accomplishments. Can you tell us a little about that? 

JAMIE CHOU

They definitely are. I'm actually the first person in my family to attend college or grad school, but my I immigrated from the United States or from China into the US when I was six and came to the country not speaking a word of English and having no idea what the United States would be. And it was definitely very much a culture shock coming here from China. 

And my mom had dropped out of school when she was 14 and started working full time in order to support her mother and her younger sister. This is basically during after the communist takeover of China. Her family was dispossessed of their home and all their belongings were basically kicked out. And so she had to find a way to support herself as well as her mom and younger sister. And so she only had a middle school education then. 

My father came from a farming family in China and I think basically had a high school equivalent of a high school education and never went on to college. But both of them very much believed in this whole Confucian ideal, you know, education being education and meritocracy being the way to achieve success. And when I immigrated graded to the US with my mom as a child, it was very much drilled and ingrained into me that I needed to do well in school, go to college and go to grad school. College was not enough. It had to be grad school on top of that. 

And we were really poor. And so my mom basically told me, the only way you're going to go to college is if you do well in high school and get a scholarship into college. So that was kind of what was the path that was set in front of me. And part of choosing a doctor, lawyer, engineer also was that you can't be a starving artist and you're not going to go to clown school. Those options are not on the table. 

Certainly when I was admitted into college, they were very happy. And then graduating college and getting to law school and graduating law school, it was kind of, you know, fulfilling all the various, you know, goalposts that had been set. 

HOST

It certainly sound like they're proud of you and sounds like you're very proud of them too. 

JAMIE CHOU

Yeah, talking to my mom was a little bit like living history book because she went through World War II and then the communist takeover and then cultural revolution.

And so going from that moving to the US was very much about pursuing the American dream and being able to, you know, have a better life for her kids than what she grew up with or what she foresaw as our future in China. So it was huge for her to be able to come here and for her coming here as somebody who didn't speak any English at all, as a middle aged woman without an education, without English skills, she was working minimum wage labor jobs, right? She was washing dishes in Chinese restaurant months, cleaning people's houses babysitting, nanny type jobs. And so that's certainly not what she wanted for my sister or for me. And so she just kept telling us, you have to go to school. You have to do well, you need to go to college, go to grad school, and that's how you're going to ensure that you're successful and you're not having to continue to do the types of jobs that I'm doing now. 

HOST

That's a really powerful story and a great history. It's so interesting to hear how your childhood shaped your path to the present day. Shifting away from your professional path, can you tell us a bit about what you like to do outside of work when you're not representing clients? 

JAMIE CHOU

So don't have a whole lot of free time these days between work and a teenager, but traveling is definitely very high on that list. And my daughter is also a huge musical theater junkie and so we do a lot of trips or get a lot of theater tickets, local shows, or you know Broadway touring companies that are coming through San Francisco. 

I mean, the great fortune we have of living in a place like San Francisco is there's so many cultural offerings here. And so between theater, ballet, symphony, we do a lot of that. 

She's a dancer, and so she loves going to dance performances. And I love the performing arts, too. Actually, if I hadn't become a lawyer, I probably would have gone into the performing arts, either something in theater or music or something like that. And so she's very much inherited a lot of those interests from me. And so we do lot of those types of things together. 

Then you know, I also, when I can try to do volunteer work with some of the local organizations in Chinatown, here in San Francisco, as well as legal organizations. As you know, given my background and where I came from, it's easy to relate to and understand the struggles within the Chinese immigrant community here. And, and, you know, how that community is very much exploited because of the fact that they don't understand the language and also don't understand their rights. 

And so, you know my daughter has had the privilege of growing up in a very different childhood than the one that I had but we try to expose her to the fact that the life that you have, while it's great, is not the life that everybody has. And so she has kind of a better understanding of what my childhood was like and what life is like for billions of people around the world. And San Francisco, as you've probably seen in the national press has a lot of kind of know, a big disparity between the haves and the have nots. And we do have a large immigrant community in San Francisco. Whether it's the DACA fights and immigration issues, housing fair wages, know, wage theft and all those types of things. A lot of those things are things that I've experienced in my life time, so it gives me kind of a personal connection to a lot of those issues. 

HOST

Well, one thing we were able to dig up from the Internet archives is your pageant history. It sounds like you were very successful in that. Can you tell us a bit about it and how it influences you as an attorney today? 

JAMIE CHOU

Yeah. I am impressed, that you were able to dig up my pageant history. That doesn't usually show up on page one or two that was actually a very funthing to do. And I did actually learn a lot and meet a lot of people and it was actually a great life experience. But it was funny. My first week of work at CWC, one of the partners googled me for whatever reason and he saw this picture pop up. He's like, hey, is that you? 

It was funny. I haven't seen that actually come up in quite some time. I used to get asked, well, one of the other associates at CWC, when she learned through the other partner that this was part of my background, she used to always introduce me by that. She's like, oh, and she was, you know, X. I was like, oh, my God. You need to stop introducing this way and she's like "to whom?" Everyone that we meet. 

Actually one of the best things I got out of that is actually, it really helps you a lot with public speaking and just kind of self confidence when bwalking into a room with strangers and being able to engage with them and trying to find a way to talk and connect with people that you've never met. Because I'm constantly going to events where I'm meeting hundreds of people and having to engage with them when I've never talked to them. And whether they're politicians or volunteers or business owners, whomever it is, you're having to really find things, ways to engage and establish rapport with people pretty instantaneously. Just answering questions, thinking on the spot and having to come up with answers on the spot which is great. Especially when you're being grilled by a judge during an oral argument. 

HOST

It certainly sounds like those pageant skills that you were recognized for have translated very well to your career now. In addition to confidence, can you speak a bit more about how those skills that you learned have helped you in your career and your personal life? 

JAMIE CHOU

Well, I think definitely poise and kind of staying calm under pressure, right. The lights are on you on stage. If you make a mistake, you have to keep going. Or during the interview portions of these competitions, you're given a question that you've never heard before. You have 5 seconds to formulate an answer and spit out something that's articulate and responsive. And so these types of things that you have to do, we often have to also do as lawyers, right? 

I mean, whether it's clients that you're engaging with and socializing or interacting, where you're in a client pitch and they're asking you questions, and even if you've stumbled or you made a mistake, you can't get hung up on that, usually. Or an oral argument, if you're a trial or you're a court hearing or whatever it is, you have to be able to just think very quickly, respond, and if you stumble a little bit, figure out very quickly how you're going to correct that, or how you cover it up and just keep going and not let that really completely derail you as you're as you're up there, because you have to keep kind of the end goal in mind, right? 

HOST

Those are such great life lessons. We do have one more final question. What does your daughter think of your success? She's a dancer, and so she's being trained in those skills that involve confidence, poise, perseverance, and others like that. Was she impressed by your accomplishments? 

JAMIE CHOU

I think she is. I mean, she's 14 years old, so she doesn't usually say things like, oh, you're an amazing mommy, I'm so proud of you. But no, I mean, my daughter and I are very close. And it's funny, when she was younger, she used to say that she wanted to be an attorney because I was. And as she got older, I think in middle school, actually, it's funny enough, in 6th grade, she decided she wanted to be a doctor instead. And when I keep telling her you could change your mind, she always says to me, mommy, you decided in 6th grade that you're going to be a lawyer and you never change your mind, so why do you keep telling me that I'm going to change mine? 

Okay, that's true, it's very true. But I tell her, I was like Samantha. A lot of the constraints that were on me when I was in 6th grade in terms of what my career options were and what I had to do to survive are not on you. And so you have a much larger world of possibilities to choose from, and you're not going to be starving if you decide that you want to pursue something like performing arts. Like if you wanted to be a dancer, that is a possibility. I mean, there's struggles associated with that, certainly, but that wasn't even really open as a possibility for me. 

But my husband likes to say that my daughter's kind of a mini me of me that she, like, even though she's 14, she actually still likes to dress like me. Like, when we go out, she wants to match me. And so she'll say, mommy, what are you wearing? Because she wants to wear something the same color or same style, because she wants us to basically be twins. 

And so even though she is, there are definitely moments of her being that very obstinate you know, just teenager who thinks that she knows better, and I don't know what I'm talking about, and we have our issues and arguments. She very much. I think, in a lot of ways, wants to emulate the things that I do. 

HOST

That's priceless. A wonderful story and great additional insight. Thank you. 

JAMIE CHOU

I think this is a great new kind of campaign that the firm is launching and kind of trying to distinguish ourselves a little bit from the millions of other law firms that are out there. 

HOST

Thanks so much for that comment, and that's certainly what we're trying to achieve here. And thank you again, Jamie, for joining us. 

JAMIE CHOU

Of course. 

HOST

That's a wrap on today's episode and on our February Saturday series. We hope you've enjoyed getting to know some of our attorneys over the past few weeks and hear how their personal histories help them provide our clients with a unique point of view like no other. 

Thank you for listening to Womble Perspectives. If you want to learn more about the topics discussed in this episode, please visit the show notes, where you can find links to related resources mentioned today. 

The show notes also have more information about our attorneys who provided today's insights, including ways to reach out to them. Don't forget to subscribe via your podcast player of choice so that you never miss an episode. Thank you again for listening.